Integrative Health Coaching and Education: A Discussion with Michelle Pearce, Phd

Michelle Pearce, PhD is a psychotherapist, coach and integrative health educator who is passionate about guiding people to well-being.

She shares her insights about health coaching, both private and group. She also shares information about the integrative health and wellness certificate program that she leads at the University of Maryland, Baltimore. This program is for physicians, nurses, nurse practitioners, physician assistants, physical therapists, occupational therapists, psychotherapists, social workers, and more.

I teach in the Integrative Health Certificate program too!

If you'd like to connect with Dr. Pearce for information or coaching  you can reach her at drmichellepearce.com or email her at info@drmichellepearce.com.

Reach out anytime. I love to hear from you!

Delia Chiaramonte, MD
www.copingcourageously.com

Coping Courageously: A Heart-Centered Guide for Navigating a Loved One’s Illness Without Losing Yourself is available here: www.copingcourageously.com 

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Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Integrative Palliative Podcast, where we help physicians and other clinicians master the art of integrative symptom management so they can wholeheartedly care for themselves as they expertly care for their patients. Welcome, Heart-Centered Healers. I'm Dr. Caramonte, and we have a really special guest today that I'm very excited about. We have Michelle Pierce, PhD, who is a professor in the graduate school at the University of Maryland, Baltimore, where she directs the Integrative Health and Wellness Online Graduate Certificate Program, which we are definitely going to talk about today. She's also an adjunct assistant professor in the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at Duke University and Medical Center. Dr. Pierce received her PhD from Yale University and completed a postdoctoral fellowship in cognitive behavioral therapy at Duke and a second fellowship in spirituality and health at the Duke Center for Spirituality, Theology, and Health. Dr. Pierce is a clinical psychologist. She's licensed to practice in Maryland. And she has specialty in cognitive behavioral therapy, mind-body stress reduction methods, and spirituality. She is also a board-certified coach and is passionate about helping people achieve their wellness and professional goals and to live balanced, thriving lives. She's the author of several books: Night Bloomers, 12 Principles for Thriving in Adversity, and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Christians with Depression, a practical tool-based primer, and she's the co-author of Religion and Recovery from PTSD. Welcome, Dr. Pierce.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Oh, thank you so much, Delia, for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

So the thing that strikes me first when I think about all of your accomplishments and all the places that you have a finger in the pot is that you teach integrative health and wellness, you're a psychologist, and you're a coach. And I'm just wondering if you could share with us how do those skills all come together for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Yeah, I think one is I love having different hats to wear. There was a time in my life when I was at Duke and I was 90% seeing clients, and it was a little bit too much. I needed a little more variety in my life. And I think I've been really lucky to find different avenues. My my central mission, if you can believe this, I wrote a life mission when I was 18. And it was to empower people to prosper, mind, body, and spirit. And I at 18. I wrote that at 18. Wow. Wow. And it's just been the driving principle of my life. So when I went off psychology and later on found out about coaching and I've always wanted to teach, like they were all just avenues for me to help empower people to prosper.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

That's very interesting. So really they're all furthering the same goal for you. Yes, but just in one is an educational way, one is a therapy psychological way, and one is a coaching way. Is that right?

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Exactly. Same with my writing. I just see the same thing of how can I help people?

SPEAKER_01 2:57

I love it. Tell us about being a psychologist and then also wanting to be a coach. And I what I'm really trying to get at is what's the difference? So if someone is struggling with a thing and they want to get towards this whole person well-being that you're talking about, why would they choose one or the other? Or is there a time you would do both? And how does that work?

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Yeah, I think a lot of people have that question. So with psychology, a clinical psychologist, you would come to see me if there's an area of your life that you're struggling with. So that would be a some diagnosable thing like depression or anxiety, maybe it's substance abuse, and you need a clinical treatment for that. I didn't even know coaching existed until I got to University of Maryland, Baltimore. It was 2012. And the position I got, there was something called student coaching, student academic coaching. And I was asked to be part of that. And I quickly, you know, immersed into this field of coaching. And I was amazed because it was really focusing on people's wholeness. You see people as resourceful and creative and whole. And that was a little different from the paradigm that we use in medicine or in psychology of how we view people. And I really liked working with people at a sort of a higher level of functioning, a higher level of wellness, and where we could address the whole person, which is maybe something I couldn't do in my psychological practice. So a few years later, I got board certified in coaching, and now I have my own practice and doing this program with faculty at the university, and I love it. And so it's fun for me to be able to do both.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Fantastic. So are they separate in your mind? Like a person would either come to you as a psychologist or they would come to you as a coach, or can the same person work with you in both realms?

SPEAKER_00 4:43

So I try to have a distinction when someone comes so that they know kind of what they're getting from me. If they want to see me as a coach, I do draw the line, you know, if they become sort of depressed or there's something that crosses into a mental health disorder. I have a distinction there that they would seek a therapist for that. Or vice versa, you know, for doing well, really with therapy, I can go into the coaching realm, but when I'm in coaching, I try not to go into the therapy realm.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Got it. Because there is some overlap, right?

SPEAKER_00 5:11

Absolutely. There's overlap. And I realized when I learned about coaching, I thought, well, I do a lot of this already. You probably do a lot of that already in your medical practice.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

Yeah. And so there really, I think, is this overlap when you see a person from a mind-body-spirit perspective and then bring whatever your license is to care for the people in that way. So I think we like to have boxes that this is a this and that's a something else. But really, it's what it sounds like is you're just trying to help people thrive from wherever they are as a whole mind-body-spirit being, right?

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Exactly. That's such a good way of putting it.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

And so tell us about the educational part. What is that program?

SPEAKER_00 5:50

So the program I run at the University of Maryland, Baltimore is the Integrative Health and Wellness Online Certificate Program. So it's a graduate program. It lasts nine months. There's four courses. Each course is worth three credits, eight weeks long. And this is a quick way for people, medical professions, healthcare professionals, to get advanced training and integrative methods. So a holistic approach to care, client-centered care. Um, it's the stuff that I wish I had learned in graduate school that they didn't teach me that I had to go and seek out, you know, afterwards on my own. And I thought, what a neat way if we could put all this together, do it in an online format so people are off doing their jobs and they can log on in the evenings or weekends and come up to speed pretty quickly with an integrative approach.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

So, full disclosure, of course, I also teach in this program. You do.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

We're so lucky.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

Me too. Um, I really love it. And what I what I really like about it is sharing widely this idea of whole person care using all the tools that work. So, yes, there's integrative medicine, there's integrative nursing, but there are plenty of people interacting with each other, helping other people be well. And so this allows people of multiple different professions, right, to learn in this whole person way.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

So true. We've had physical therapists, yoga therapists, people that are at retirement age that just want to live healthier lives themselves, professors runs the whole gamut of people that are interested in this.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

What are the courses? I know the one that I teach, but what would you share with everybody what are the four.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

So we've got an introduction to integrative health is our first course. You'll spend the first eight weeks getting introduced to concepts of what is holistic care and what's functional medicine and what's mind body medicine, and just a little overview of different areas that are important in the field. The second course is mind body interventions, and that's a course that I teach, and that's things like meditation and guided imagery and acupuncture and journaling, and you get to actually try all the methods, which I think is really fun. As you know, in this program, one of the key principles is that you're not just being filled with knowledge. We're going to do that for sure, but you're going to go experience these things for yourselves. Um, and side note, that's how I got interested in integrative health. Um, there was a time in my life in my training early on that I got pretty sick and conventional medicine wasn't helping. And I got introduced into integrative medicine, things like meditation. Well, I was a skeptic back then. I didn't believe in any of it. You've come so far. I've come so far, but I like to tell people I started as a skeptic. I don't know any of the research. I don't know if that works. That sounds a little quackery. And then I got sick, and then that's the only thing that helped. And then after I realized this is helping, I went to the literature, I'm like, oh, you know, humble moment. Yes, there is literature on this and it's growing.

unknown 8:44

Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Um, and this works and there's evidence for it. And that's when I wanted to really pay it forward of okay, there's a lot of people like me that were once skeptics but could really benefit from this. So a little side note of where this all came from. Our third course in the program is health coaching. I teach that one too, and that's really introducing people to what is coaching, especially for health and wellness. I say to folks, you're not going to be a coach when you're done to eight weeks. Please don't go out and put up your little sign to be a coach, but you're going to have offered to work with a peer and do coaching with a peer, which is fun because they get to pick something in their lives that isn't going well, that they get to be coached on over the course of eight weeks and see some changes in their lives from that. Um, and then your course. Did you want to describe your course? Sure.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

So our course is really the application of all of the things that they've learned in the earlier part of the program. And for clinical people, they learn how to actually create a treatment plan. But then for the people who come through who are not clinical, who won't have patients or clients, they learn about the idea of how one might put together a treatment plan for, you know, for example, an autoimmune disease or migraine headaches or something like that. What I have found is that for the non-clinical people, often they're researching topics that are of interest to them or their family, something that they suffer with or someone in the family suffers with. And to be honest, often the clinicians are also doing the same thing. Because I think you mentioned it, but it's worth highlighting that one of the key things in the integrative medicine field is that the practitioner is not separated from the process, but that we are really expected to live this world and share this world with the other person. But you know, you can't be an unhealthy, miserable, stressed out, exhausted person and then mentor somebody else to whole person wellness. You have to clean your own house first, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:43

Absolutely. And I think it's one of the reasons I love being in this field. Um, I loved meeting you years ago because I got to work in a place that supported my values for wellness. I knew after getting sick early on that I had to have a change in the way that I worked and it needed to be closer to a nine to five, not what I had been doing in in my graduate studies. And so finding a world of people that agree with this value system that we need to look after ourselves to be able to look after our clients and look after our patients was such a beautiful find. And so I like to be able to share that with others that are going through the program is that we're you are the instrument of healing. You know, it's not all the knowledge. You are the instrument of healing. We're preparing you as a person to go out and to do this work. And so, yes, as instructors, we have to be living that out in front of them.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

I love that. I just gave a talk recently on the placebo and nocebo response, and I said that same thing, which is you are the placebo, or you are the nocebo. So, which is the placebo gone bad, telling people symptoms they might get and then they get them. And so, yeah, that idea of we need to take care of ourselves first so that we can then be the instrument of healing for somebody else, I think is really fundamental.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Yes, I agree. We speak louder than our words.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

That's powerful. Yeah, right. We do. And that whole idea of healing presence, whatever that is, you know, whether that's energy, if you believe in that, or just even being focused in giving someone actual attention, which is hard to get in this world. Everyone's always, you know, when you're talking, someone else is thinking about what they're gonna say next, or they look like they're talking to you, but they're thinking about the stuff they have to do. So really bringing attention to another person and focusing on them is such a healing act, no matter what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

So true. And even if you don't have a lot of time, you can be fully present for those five minutes and make someone feel seen.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Can you talk about that? Because I know that is I used to be a family doctor. That's one of the things that clinicians really struggle with is yeah, all that stuff you're talking about sounds great, but you know, I have to see 28 patients a day. How am I supposed to do any of these things?

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Yeah. Yeah. I have physicians that come through the program, as you know, and and they say things like, you know, this is all really great stuff, but I've got seven minutes. When do you think I'm gonna do integrative questions and techniques? And you know, really helping them to sit down and again go back to that, like you are the instrument of healing. So if you slow down, if you make eye contact, I can't tell you how many doctors that I've gone into and we've spent the whole session looking at their computer screen. And I get if you've got seven minutes, you got to make your note and ask me all the questions at the same time. But if you take 20 of those seconds at the beginning and make eye contact with me and say hello and shake my hand, yeah, we've created a moment together. And then I understand when you need to put your eyes back on the screen to fill out your notes, but we already have a connection. So it doesn't have to take a long time, but something intentionally has to happen for that presence to be connected.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

That's so important because people sometimes feel a little black and white about it. Like, yeah, I wish I could be that kind of a doctor, that would be great, or that kind of a therapist, that would be great, but I don't have the time, so I'll do zero. So, you know, is 20 seconds ideal? Of course not. But is it better than nothing? 100% it's better than nothing.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

Find the same thing when we're talking about health coaching. So I've had students say, like, this motivational interviewing, this is great, but when am I gonna have 15 minutes to help someone stop smoking or eat better or lose weight? And it's interesting because they'll start the conversation and say, I'm so burnt out at work, I can't get any of my patients to comply. And that's the language of compliance. Comply. Right? I can't get them to get into line and comply with what I'm telling them to do. And I'm so burnt out. And I help them just to take a step back and say, if you're working harder than the client and you've made the issue your issue instead of their issue, you absolutely are going to get burnt out. But here's an alternative way of looking at this, and we teach that motivational interviewing is really helping the client to get or the patient to get connected with their value system and to resolve someone's ambivalence that they're feeling. And then it's not a I'm up here, you're down here, I'm the expert telling you what to do. It's really helping the client feel at a level playing field and even the expert in their own lives, driven by their own value system and not yours.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

A hundred percent. Yeah, comply is the opposite of motivational interviewing, right? But it taps in, this is why I love this field, it taps into so many things. Like clinicians, if we try to take on someone else's success, we feel like a failure if that person hasn't done what we think that they should do. And now we have negativity about this other person or this interaction with them. Whereas if we really can work on our own stuff and our own need to control and to fix other people and instead just bring our healing presence, make a situation where the person has the ability to take a step in a healing direction if they want to. And if they don't, so okay, we still show up and care about them. And maybe next time they will.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

Yeah, that's a really good way of putting it. And I think that's not how we're trained. I mean, think about like since you're kindergarten, you know, you're striving for the A.

unknown 16:02

Right.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

You get the right outcome, you get an A, you get the check mark, you get the gold star. And then you get into your practicing. And so the A is, well, you're gonna come into my office next time and you're gonna have stopped smoking, or you're gonna have lost those 20 pounds. Then I get the A. That's not our A. R A is I showed up with presence, I showed up with kindness, I share with you all of the evidence that I spent time to research and review before I got to this session. And I shared that with you. And I did it in a loving, caring manner that was also respectful because I'm I'm putting it out that this is your life and you still have choices. So if you choose not to make a decision in your life towards a healthy lifestyle, for example, that's not an impact or reflection on me, right? Like I get to let you own your life and me own my life so that I'm not looking for your change to be my aid plus.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

Exactly. That's so well put. And and also if we don't judge people, then they won't run away and be afraid to talk to us, right? So if we're judgmental, like what? You gained a pound instead of losing 10 pounds like I told you to, they won't come back because now they feel badly. They don't feel supported by you. That's where right. If we're just walking beside them on their journey, like, hey, what were the barriers? How can I help you? Is there something I can do to support you? Or even this is not the time right now because your husband has cancer. Okay, fine. Then how about just let that go and don't torture yourself about it for right now? That's right.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

Yeah. I tell my therapy clients that all the time. Like I often give homework, I'm one of those therapists. And I tell them up front, I said, please come back. You know, even if you don't do the the homework, that is not a reason not to come back. Yeah, you know, and they sometimes come back and say, Well, I either didn't do it or I I failed at it, and they, you know, sort of that look of shame that first time. And I I quickly put that to bed and say, I don't see this as a failure. I see this as a chance to learn what we need to do differently to get the outcome that you said that you wanted. So this didn't work. So let's put on our detective hats and figure out why it didn't work and what else might be work better. It's an experiment. So go experiment this week, try this different thing. We'll come back next week, look at our data, see if we need to revise things. And we look at it like that sort of iterative process. So there's no judgment, whether you go backwards or forwards.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

That is amazing. And not just not having the judgment, but telling the people that you're not going to judge them. I think that's really important. And anybody can do that, right? Any clinician of any kind of physician or therapist or any other clinician should put that in their toolbox to tell the person if I suggest something to you, don't worry if you know, do it. I hope that will that you'll do it because we talked about it and you think it will help you. But if you don't do it, it's perfectly fine. And I'm not going to judge you. And please don't stay away because you think I'm going to judge you because I'm not going to judge you. Right. And even in regular life, you know, with your spouse or friends or kids, that's also an important thing because we all want the gold star, right? Like the patient wants it too, and your sister wants it too. And we should really just not judge each other and not judge ourselves. And if we can be open about that, like, hey, I'm not going to judge you, it's fine. Right. What a relief that would be.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

What a relief. I think it creates a safe space to get to play with things, to experiment, to try. You can't have that sense of flexibility and curiosity and playfulness if you're worried about performing and getting it right and failing or not failing.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

So, where does coaching fit in? What tell us about what coaching is, even? Because I think many people know what therapy is. But I I'm not sure that everybody really understands what coaching is and who would maybe want to seek it out.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

Yeah. I I see coaching as a partnership. I am um a guide on the side, a facilitator of change, a someone that can that sort of stands shoulder to shoulder with you. And we're looking out at your future, and you as a client are telling me, here's where I'd really like to go. And I'm looking down there at that place where you want to go. And I'm asking you some powerful questions around, you know, what's keeping you from being there now? What needs to change to be able to get there? And so through my questions, through some reflection, through support, accountability, through providing some strategies, it allows that person to start walking that road towards that ideal outcome that they're looking for.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

Can you give some examples? What might somebody show up on the first day and say and how might that go?

SPEAKER_00 20:33

I hate my job, they might say. Clearly, just let me hate your job, so you should quit your job, clearly, and go look at those white pages, like find something else. Um, no, because we might be looking down that road together and spending some time. And and the real issue is they're not sleeping. They're fighting with their partner at home. Their kid is in and out of suspension at school, they're going through a divorce, whatever, right? There's things going on and they're just depleted, and they're bringing that depleted self to the workplace. And it really has nothing to do with the job that they used to love. It's just a job that they don't have any energy left for. So by spending some time to figure out what the real thing is that's going on, then we can deal with the root cause, and then they can make a decision about what they want to do around their job.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

I love that. And it makes me think about something that I often did when I was parenting when my kids were younger, which is that no matter what they say when they're, you know, having a tantrum or yelling, the words don't mean anything. But what the words really are is I'm suffering. So they could say, I hate you, that means I'm suffering. That could mean I hate school, that could that's I'm suffering. Like whatever the words are. It really meant I'm suffering in some way. And that strikes me what you just said is the person might say, I hate my job, I hate my husband, I'm exhausted all the time. And what they're saying is I'm suffering. And it sounds like you help them figure out where are you suffering and what can we do about whatever the things are that are causing you to suffer.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

It's such a good way of putting it. I often say to patients, they'll come in and they'll say, I feel crazy or I'm a failure. And I say, I don't work with crazy people. I work with people, I work with people who are in pain.

unknown 22:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

And whether I've got my clinical psychologist hat on or the coaching hat, I work with people who are in pain. There's some painful thing going on in their life. So I really like you put that. They're suffering.

unknown 22:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:41

Yeah, that's great. I know this may be, you may not like this, but I really like coaches that are also psychologists or therapists because even though you're keeping the things separate, you can't unknow what you know. And having a coach who also understands human the human psyche, I think is is an even more powerful coach than somebody who does not have a license in that way, but got a coaching certificate.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Yeah. I appreciate it. I'd have to agree with you on that one. I think I was, I think it took to coaching much easier because there I did have such a strong background in working with people.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

So do you have a certain kind of person that you tend to work with from a coaching perspective? Yeah, I was thinking about that the other day.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

It really runs the gamut. I have some people that we do work on careers, wanting to change a job, wanting to be more satisfied in the job. Do a lot of wellness coaching. So I want to have a healthier lifestyle. Um, and a lot of things around relationships. I want a better relationship or I'm in something that's not great. Please help me get out. Um, those sort of issues. I really enjoy coaching people around their mindset. It's around perspective change. So, as you mentioned in the intro, I'm trained in cognitive behavioral therapy. So I spend a lot of time helping people look at limiting thoughts. So I love the aha moments in coaching or therapy where you help someone just switch the perspective a little bit. And then you just see everything change. If I can look at it just a little differently, all these options and possibilities open up that weren't there before. I love that moment.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

So if somebody listening is thinking, okay, I am suffering in some way. I have pain of some sort, psychological pain, but I'm not really sure if I need therapy or coaching.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

What do they do? Well, one thing they could do is reach out to me because I just wrote an article on that. Oh, good, really? I did, um, because I get that a lot. And so I wrote an article and um just sort of explained some of the differences. How do you decide? So I would be happy to provide them with that or to have a conversation around it. And you can do both, you know, at the same time. You could deal with the depression with your therapist and your job issues with your coach, and that's fine at the same time. So, are you taking coaching clients or therapy clients now? I am. I am. I'm taking individual coaching clients, and I've just started group coaching. So I'm really enjoying this. The group coaching program is called How to Create Lasting Positive Change. And I've taken everything I know about change, behavioral change from the psychological literature and applied it in this group format across 90 days. And I say to you, pick any goal you want. I've had people learn how to drive, you know, really jobs, start a business, um, lose weight, sort of really across the gamut. Give me 90 days and we will make some sort of positive lasting change in that area of your life. It's been really fun.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

Oh, that's fun. So people can be working on different goals at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

Yeah, the neat thing about this group is that people choose very different things. And the feedback I got, because the first time I ran it, I thought, oh goodness, you know, I didn't choose a niche and everyone's gotten these different things and it's going to be a cohesive. And the feedback I got at the end was this was so neat that we all had a different focus. And yet we had the support and the accountability, and each person was sharing different pieces of wisdom. Um, and it really worked.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

That's terrific. So, one of the reasons that I think that's really neat is that you probably can learn things from people in other fields that you don't really know because we talk to the same people who see things like we see them and we have kind of group think. But if you talk to someone in, I don't know, auto manufacturing, you probably learn a whole different way of thinking. And maybe some of the things that they use, you can use for yourself.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

It's so true. It's it's really fun to see the wisdom of the group come together. And I let them know like this is one of the benefits of group coaching. Is you get me, yes, I'm there. I'm gonna, I'm gonna coach you. And you get five, 10 other people in the room that are coaching you as well and providing these insights and accountability. So each person gets paired up. You've got a peer accountability partner for these 90 days that you're talking to regularly. So lots of people are helping you get to the goal you want to reach.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

That's very cool. So if someone is interested in exploring that with you, how do they find you?

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Sure. So my website is www.drmishellepierce.com. Pierce is P-E-A-R-C-E. And my email is info at drmichellepierce.com. And that is at dr dr or dr speldown. Dr. D R. Yeah. Dr Michelle Pierce.com. Terrific.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

All right. So I often at the end of a podcast episode ask my expert guests to share something that the listeners might do this week, a small thing to facilitate their own well-being. What would you like to suggest that we do?

SPEAKER_00 27:39

You know, I'm going to keep it really simple today. I'm noticing that the sun is finally coming through my window, which hasn't been here all week. And all I've been thinking about is how I'd love to get outside for a few minutes. So I'm going to leave the listeners with that, at how important it is just to get out in the sun for a few minutes every day.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

I love it. It's amazing how that doesn't happen unless you do it intentionally, either working from home or going from our home to our car to our office. And you could go a whole day without going outside. You really can.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

That's the thing to try this week.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

Okay. We're all going to go outside in the sun for a few minutes. Thank you so much for joining us. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

Thank you for having me. It was lovely.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

All right, everybody, share this with people that you know. I think the two things that are really important here that we talked about one is this educational program. If you have someone who wants to pursue integrative health in a more academic way, you can reach out to Dr. Pierce about this program. And if you're interested in coaching, either individual coaching or group coaching, uh, I know Dr. Pierce well, and she's really a fabulous coach. So if that's something that speaks to you, I suggest you reach out. All right. Thanks so much, everybody, and I'll see you next week. Bye-bye. This podcast is brought to you by the Integrative Palliative Institute. Visit our website, integrativepalliative.com. There you can access physician and clinician training, well being coaching, free downloads, and other cool stuff. And feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn and share your favorite episode with a friend.